Denis Ladegaillerie on AI, streaming royalty fashions, Imagine’s sport plan… and extra


You possibly can take heed to the most recent MBW podcast above, or on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, iHeart etc. via this link.


Welcome to the most recent Music Business Worldwide Podcast. The MBW Podcast is supported by Voly Music.


On the most recent MBW Podcast, MBW founder Tim Ingham is joined by Denis Ladegaillerie, founder and CEO of Believe.

Paris-headquartered Imagine is now nicely established as one of many largest recorded music corporations outdoors of the majors, each through its Imagine-branded artist and label companies operation in addition to its subsidiary, TuneCore, which introduced on the shut of final 12 months that it had paid out over USD $3 billion to impartial artists up to now.

Imagine at the moment is valued at round $1 billion on the Paris Euronext inventory trade, having turned over round $450 million in income in the first half of 2023.

(Imagine experiences its revenues in Euros.)

On this podcast, MBW’s Ingham asks Ladegaillerie about a lot of key matters together with:

  • How the music business ought to cope with streaming fraud;
  • The potential of ‘superfans’ for rightsholders, and the way the music enterprise can take advantage of the chance;
  • Yep… Synthetic Intelligence. (AI is a very well timed topic at Imagine and TuneCore, which just lately partnered with Grimes to distribute music created by different artists utilizing an AI replication of her voice.)

Ingham additionally asks Ladegaillerie for his ideas on the ‘user-centric’ royalty payout mannequin, whereas the Imagine exec additionally volunteers his views on the thought of curbing royalties for artists with fewer than 1,000 month-to-month listeners on streaming platforms. (Clue: he’s actually not a fan.)

(Our dialog with Ladegaillerie on this podcast truly happened shortly earlier than Universal Music Group and Deezer announced their plans for an ‘artist-centric’ mannequin – one thing over which the Imagine founder has now expressed his specific thoughts more fully.)

One different vital level about Imagine: it’s not only a recorded music firm.

Since March Imagine has additionally run its personal world music publishing operation, housed below TuneCore, following Imagine’s acquisition of the $51 million-valued Sentric Music.

Take heed to the complete podcast above, or learn an edited and abridged transcript of a number of the highlights beneath…


Let’s begin with synthetic intelligence. What’s your general view of the constructive aspect of the place AI may take the music business? And the way can the music enterprise can greatest guard towards the threats that AI clearly poses to copyright?

AI usually creates a chance for the music business; the music business ought to change its stance and cease viewing AI as a menace. Generative AI creates alternatives for the music business in two areas –  creativity and discovery.

It’s the usage of a pc, or the usage of information, to reinforce the creation of music, be it voice, music, or composition. We expect [AI] creates a chance for all artists and it’ll additionally empower a brand new technology of artists to create higher music.

AI additionally empowers discovery… [and in this respect] the usage of AI within the business just isn’t new: AI, or machine studying, is what’s [behind] algorithm-based suggestions at YouTube or TikTok or Spotify Discovery.

“I believe the music business ought to change its stance and cease viewing AI as a menace. Generative AI creates alternative for the music business in two areas –  creativity and discovery.”

A variety of the priority about AI, as you identified, is round: How does the enterprise guard towards its threats to copyright?

What we ask is, what’s one of the best ways to manage [that] and guarantee that we’ll have a accountable growth of AI?

[The answer] is collaboration between… corporations equivalent to Google or ByteDance or Meta, and the music business itself.

We as an organization have been very engaged in conversations with all of those corporations, and others, round the way to harness generative AI; all of those conversations have been very constructive.

Sure, there isn’t any copyright framework globally [for AI today]. However I’d say most significantly, there’s [already] collaboration and cooperation between the assorted gamers within the business.

That provides us the time to correctly adapt the authorized framework globally in numerous international locations in a method that doesn’t create a short-term menace to the music business.


There’s been lots of speak within the business in regards to the additional monetization of ‘superfans’. What may a streaming service provide a superfan, in your view, which might be price that particular person paying extra every month?

Superfans already monetize at [a] a lot larger degree, once you have a look at it, in markets like Japan, for instance, or in China, by means of particular subscription [plans] or particular [physical] choices which can be [linked] to artists.

I believe you possibly can [adapt] a few of these experiences to the digital world [in other markets].

The superfan is , first, in distinctive experiences and distinctive engagement with the artist, whether or not that’s a meet-and-greet, gaining access to a listening celebration, or early album entry.

“in the event you begin making superfans contribute [more] financially, it’s essential to guarantee that you may ship these advantages which can be worthwhile to them.”

All of those mechanics could be replicated within the digital world: you possibly can think about having subscriptions the place the [superfan] will get entry to dwell [events], will get entry to a pre-listening celebration; will get acknowledged by the artist as a superfan by means of digital badges, issues like that.

Our view is that [these features] will take slightly little bit of time to place in place as a result of in the event you begin making superfans contribute [more] financially, it’s essential to guarantee that you may ship these advantages which can be worthwhile to them.


Whenever you have a look at one other sizzling business matter – streaming fraud – is it not the case that lots of that may very well be eradicated with the user-centric cost mannequin?

We’ve finished lots of surveys round this, and crunched information with numerous music companies [and] what we see is once you transfer to user-centric, you’ve got one [main] profit, which is you’ve got extra variety. The worth is being unfold higher throughout numerous genres of music.

However you even have two different [negative] results: (i) You focus extra worth on [large] world artists, and (ii) You additionally focus extra worth on catalog, which we predict goes towards ensuring that you’ve native markets which can be vibrant and [that enable you to] fund the event of recent artists.

This can be a crucial matter. My very own instinct from what we’ve seen is that user-centric might be a very good base to work from, however that [it] needs to be adjusted with some mechanisms to have in mind a few of these parts I used to be simply speaking about.


In the case of the dialogue about altering the streaming cost mannequin, does any of the speak that you just’ve heard from the key music corporations alarm you? or is everybody transferring in the direction of the identical web page?

Within the numerous conversations we’re having with DSPs what we see globally is there’s alignment on three matters after which dis-alignment on [one other].

There’s alignment on combating streaming fraud and eliminating streaming abuse. There’s additionally alignment round what we name ‘non-music’ content material, noise or [non-music] sounds, to be excluded from the pool of music royalties, in order that the pool of music royalties actually goes to artists.

There’s additionally settlement usually round particular parts of ‘purposeful music’ [and moving it to non-music streaming destinations].

The place there’s dis-alignment is: What’s [the definition of] an precise artist? And what are the goals [for different companies looking to change the payment model]?

How do you greatest share worth between ‘precise’ artists?

“Why would you not pay such an artist? It doesn’t make any sense. What sign as a music business do you ship to aspiring artists in the event you go in that route?”

We’ve seen proposals from a number of the DSPs round ‘let’s not pay any royalty to any artists that generate lower than 1,000 streams per thirty days’.

That’s primarily an artist at first of their profession, an aspiring artist, and 1,000 streams a month might be 200 to 300 listeners listening to that artist regularly.

Why would you not pay such an artist? It doesn’t make any sense. What sign as a music business do you ship to aspiring artists in the event you go in that route?

I believe it’s going to take extra time [for industry players] to align across the query of… how will we share the worth?

And there’s a robust battle of curiosity between main file labels and impartial artists.


On a latest earnings name, Imagine claimed it was the ‘quantity two’ participant in India in Q1 2023, which might imply you had been forward of conventional labels and native ‘main’ labels. May you clarify the metrics behind that?

That was when it comes to market share on digital music companies.

I traveled to India in February or March, I frolicked with our workforce there and we additionally met with all of our native companions, Spotify, YouTube, TikTok… They confirmed to us that we had been both No.1 or No.2, relying on the service, throughout the entire main companies within the area.

We now have been energetic within the [Indian] market since 2013. We now have… lots of of native labels, and [many more] artists which can be trusting us within the growth of [their music].

“We got here into India and mentioned, ‘No, there’s additionally a unique mannequin [for artists]. You possibly can develop in a method the place you keep your copyrights and also you take part financially in your success.’”

That’s the method that we’ve been taking, to have the ability to work with these artists regionally, regionally, in numerous genres of music and numerous segments, [which is what] has allowed us to construct to that place.

[In India] traditionally Bollywood has been the dominant section… the place artists tended to promote their copyrights to film manufacturing homes. We got here into India and mentioned, ‘No, there’s additionally a unique mannequin. You possibly can develop in a method the place you keep your copyrights and also you take part financially in your success.’

Lots of people come to me [during] my final journey and mentioned ‘thanks very a lot,’ as a result of that’s a metamorphosis of the market that’s extraordinarily constructive; it’s fostering a brand new technology of artists and musicians in a method that they will make a residing out of it.


You’ve acquired some warmth from folks near the business about your actions in Russia over the previous 18 months. You’ve continued your operations in Russia following the invasion of Ukraine, an method that differs from the opposite main recording corporations. Are you able to give us your justification for this?

We’re nonetheless current each in Russia and Ukraine. Our mission as an organization is to advertise music and artists, and we predict that is among the vectors to create mutual understanding and peace.

As an organization, we’re dedicated, everywhere in the world, to defending our artists and labels and our native groups. When the disaster got here, principally our view… was articulated round 4 pillars.

Defending the security of our folks each in Russia and Ukraine, that was precedence No.1. Our precedence No.2 was sustaining our operations regionally, by means of a tragic time and hardship in each territories.

“Our mission as an organization is to advertise music and artists, and we predict that is among the vectors to create mutual understanding and peace.”

No.3 was to abide by all legal guidelines and laws relevant to Imagine’s exercise. And our final pillar was to assist – past the abnormal – artists, labels, and companions in Ukraine.

We’ve finished greater than anybody else in supporting our native artists and native labels [in Ukraine] by means of advertising and marketing, promotion, monetary assist, coaching, and relocation assist..

We’ve had a lot of discussions with the French authorities [and] different governments round these insurance policies, ensuring that [our policies] had been aligned with what was anticipated from us from governments across the numerous areas.


There may be proof of an inevitable slowdown in streaming subscription development in massive territories. That slowdown is then barely offset by streaming value rises. Are you assured and optimistic in regards to the development forward for recorded music globally?

I’m very optimistic.  You’re completely proper that a number of the markets – US, Australia, UK – will see slower development on the streaming aspect. However I do suppose we’ll see additional value will increase, as a result of the value of music at present is undervalued in comparison with the place it must be.

On high of this, segmentation – we spoke about one factor, which is superfans – will assist enhance the typical income per person for music.

Then you’ll begin to see in a number of the markets with a lot decrease penetration [today], that paid subscription goes to proceed to construct up with very robust development charges.

“We do suppose that we are actually on the stage the place an artist can construct on their very own, impartial of main file labels, and we do suppose that’s creating new alternatives that didn’t exist earlier than.”

In the case of Imagine I’m much more optimistic for just a few causes.

The primary is that once you have a look at our geographic presence, we’re positioned [well] in markets in Europe [as well as] rising markets which can be faster-growing markets [elsewhere]. So naturally that positions us to drive faster-than-market development within the years forward.

Two, there are a selection of markets just like the US, the place we have now not but set foot on a big scale, which we’re going to be exploring, which for a corporation like us offers extra room for development.

Third, with the acquisition of Sentric, we intend to foray into new companies, bringing a brand new degree of companies for our artists and labels throughout areas.


Talking of the US, is the Oliver Anthony phenomenon [whereby a DIY-distributed nation artist shot to No.1 on the Billboard Sizzling 100 and STAYED THERE FOR A SECOND WEEK] indicative of any wider theme? and the way does Imagine’s plan to broaden within the US match into whether or not or not it’s an indicator of a pattern?

I do suppose it’s an indicator of a pattern – an indicator of the truth that you can also make it as an impartial artist, you can also make it with the assist of other platforms.

I believe you will notice an increasing number of examples like this, and that’s the route that we’re taking as an organization, for TuneCore and for Imagine globally.

[In the US] we’re searching for acquisition alternatives as nicely.

So sure, we do suppose that we are actually on the stage the place an artist can construct on their very own, impartial of main file labels, and that’s creating new alternatives that didn’t exist earlier than.


MBW’s podcasts are supported by Voly Music. Voly’s platform enables music industry professionals from all sectors to manage a tour’s budgets, forecasts, track expenses, approve invoices and make payments 24/7, 365 days a year. For more information and to sign up to a free trial of the platform, visit VolyMusic.com.

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